(S4E8) This is How We Do It: 3 Researchers & How They Maximise LinkedIn

Introduction [: 00:00:04

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode, we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ruth Winden [: 00:00:24

You, um, welcome to the final episode of season four, which is focused on research careers. My name is Ruth Winden, and I'm the Careers with Research consultant at the University of Leeds. I'm ending this season by giving the last word to our researchers. In the previous podcast episode, I talked about LinkedIn and why the platform matters to researchers. And since any activity on a platform starts by creating a profile, I shared some ideas about how to turn an okay profile into a really attractive one. To write a profile that acts as a magnet to attract your ideal audience. I also offered solutions to common mistakes I see researchers make on their LinkedIn profiles. But now we go further. You've polished your profile, so what's next? I ask three of our researchers to share their thoughts on how they use LinkedIn. You have met my guests before, so their voices will sound familiar if you have listened to previous episodes. First up is Marianne Talbot, a PhD in Education at the University of Leeds, who you met in episode three. Marianne came to one of my LinkedIn workshops on building your visibility, and off she went and implemented everything at speed. Her motto is "Be present and active". And she tells us about her approach to posting and commenting on LinkedIn. Marianne, what I notice is you've become so active on LinkedIn and you put so many wonderful things out there, I've even included you and I know I asked you for permission, I included you in some of my teaching materials as shining examples of how to engage on LinkedIn. So I wonder whether you can explain a little bit more about your approach to LinkedIn.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:02:11

Well, that's very kind of you, Ruth. I don't know about shining example, but I think it was the first time we ever met, actually, and I say met in a virtual sense, obviously, was you talking about kind of brushing up your LinkedIn profile and getting oneself out there, which I knew I needed to do. I'd had a LinkedIn profile for a number of years, but never really used it. But becoming a PGR at leads gave me the kind of kick up the backside, if you like to get it sorted. And I heeded your advice, I think, and jazzed up my profile. And since then so that's getting on. For 18 months, I've been using it much more regularly, posting two, three times a week and what I find really valuable. It's lovely to have that jazzed up profile, isn't it? But actually, it gives me a chance to think about what's important to me to post. And because I have my irons in many fires, I've got my PGR work at Leeds. I've got paid work at the Chartered Institute for Educational Assessors, and I've got other paid work and I've got voluntary work and so on.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:03:16

So I can post about any of those things. So it's usually quite a variety, which means hopefully at least one of my posts in a week will appeal to someone in my network. So I'm hitting quite a wide base of people and I know that those people have their own networks and so on and so on. So I think it's about me being reflective about what's important to post and how do I talk about this? I usually try and be quite positive, not always 100% positive, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, but also will it be of interest to others? And it's a way of showcasing the variety of activities that I undertake across a week or a fortnight, ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous. And I'm also much more active in terms of liking or commenting on others posts as well, which I wasn't previously. I'm sure there's more I could do to up my game, but I felt it's given me a bit of a fillip, really, and it enabled me to point towards my researcher profile, towards other projects I'm interested in. I'm involved in at leads like the Hillary Place papers. So I think for me, I don't know that I've seen any kind of monetary value or anything like that, and I wouldn't necessarily expect to, but to me, it feels valuable to be present and active on LinkedIn.

Ruth Winden [: 00:04:32

You've been really clear on your orientation, that is what is useful to my audience. I know you've got a diverse audience and so you have to juggle a little bit what appeals to which part of my audience. But this audience orientation is so important, isn't it? And I understand it's not always necessarily the immediate payback, but I can assure you I notice you a lot more. And if I notice you a lot more, other people will. And all you need is at some point a new client just sees, oh, this Marianne Talbot, the professional, she always talks about X-Y-Z. Why don't I reach out to her? So it's a long game, isn't it? But I just want to congratulate you. But I've seen a real uptake and as I said, you have a beautiful way of describing things or structuring the post to make it engaging. And so I shared it with other researchers at the university because it was such a great example for them, because when I say, oh, raise your visibility, get more active on LinkedIn, that's not always easy to understand. What does that actually mean? And so thank you for sharing your approach. And yeah, all the best, Marianne. Thank you.

Marianne Talbot [: 00:05:40

Thank you, Ruth.

Ruth Winden [: 00:05:42

Next up is Dr. Niclas West, who was a postdoc at Leeds before he moved into industry as an application specialist with Andor. Niclas talks about LinkedIn as a job search tool. You heard about Niclas' international career transitions in episode four in our segment. Niclas explains how he used LinkedIn to engage with a business-focused audience in his field and how he learned to translate his academic research expertise into something that spoke to commercial employers. His approach to getting recommendations might also be of interest as this is an area that so many of us struggle with. So Nic, you've been using LinkedIn so successfully in your career management and in your job search, and I wonder whether you can give fellow postdocs and researchers a few tips.

Dr Niclas West [: 00:06:27

Yeah. I think to some extent it really fit with my personality to try to use leverage LinkedIn in a way. I read books about and learned through the Careers Architect programme at the University of Leeds, where I can almost be a little bit more passive. Put all of my details, fill it in completely so that headhunters, recruiters can find me while I finished up my postdoc and things like that. So I wanted to try to find out how could I make myself be able to be found as much as possible through it. So besides just filling in all the information, the keywords that someone would search for, I read about how the algorithms work a little bit, where they prioritise people that are connected to you more over others when people search for you. So if a recruiter is trying to search for you, if you're not connected to them, you're going to fall lower down in the list. So I made some connections, a few connections with LinkedIn Lions, so LinkedIn open networkers that are connected to lots and lots of people, but also some recruiters themselves, but not too many because I don't want too many people that are not going to interact with my posts that I make. So this is one thing I've discussed with Ruth previously, is you want some connections, but you want good quality connections that will comment on your post, talk and interact with you when you do this. And so really, it's about building up this whole evidence of you as somebody that's enjoyable to work with as well. Because if you build up some recommendations that basically show that you're not just a stereotypical academic, that sometimes there's an industry, they might think, oh, maybe there's a reason somebody went for the PhD. Maybe they can't interact as well in a big team as you need to in industry. Then they worry about you. Even if you do have all these amazing credentials, or if you can't speak their language and change to show how effective you are at taking out carrying out tasks, not necessarily focusing on every single technical thing you can do, but how well you did it, so that somebody that's a recruiter that doesn't have your technical background can actually assess how good you are. These are some of the things I could think of from the top of my head, yeah.

Ruth Winden [: 00:08:36

Fantastic. So it's really about building that good quality network, being meticulous about that. You fill in your profile, and that's what I see. Often researchers don't put enough detail on there. They leave a lot of things blank or just one sentence or give people a flavour. And then what you've been so good at is thinking, how does industry speak? What terminology do they use? Because they do use different language often and really writing it to an audience who think in a certain way and going from there. And one thing I also thought was great - you were very active, weren't you, Nic? You did post things.

Dr Niclas West [: 00:09:12

Yeah. So when I was working on the postdoc, some of the types of things I would post were I think, if I went to a conference or if I published a paper, I would try to write in more layman's terms to describe what that paper was about and what I contributed to that work, so that my friends would like and comment on it. But then also people outside of my circle could see a little bit as well.

Ruth Winden [: 00:09:35

Absolutely. So speak the language of your audience. And then one thing that I find fantastic is the recommendations. And there is something about researchers that they're so reluctant to ask for recommendations. You've been different, Nic. Tell us what makes the difference for you with the recommendations.

Dr Niclas West [: 00:09:54

I think well, first of all, I talk to the people that I've enjoyed working with that I think that I have the mutual rapport with, that I could say I enjoy working with them as well. And so sometimes I just trade recommendations with them because it makes both of us look good. That's probably most of them that I've gotten. And then sometimes they don't necessarily know what job I'm trying to go after next. So I might also mention, hey, can you comment on my presentation skills if you feel comfortable or such and such abilities that would help me land the next job as well?

Ruth Winden [: 00:10:31

Yeah. Fantastic. So what would your tip be for researchers who are so reluctant? Because I often feel they think I have to be an absolute expert to be able to ask someone. I don't agree with that. What is your tip for them? How do they overcome that reluctance to ask?

Dr Niclas West [: 00:10:46

I think I'm usually more outgoing, but at the same time, I think it's just realizing everyone has their positive and negative qualities. I think some of the things that Ruth developed through the Careers Architect program is I'm a perfectionist. So sometimes it's a really good thing when I need to dive really deep into something. And my collaborators enjoy how thorough I am on some things, but it also can make them feel like I'm slow and other things when they don't think I necessarily needed to spend as much time on something. So for me, it was about thinking about how my personality affects others and hiding the parts or minimizing the effect on others, the parts that would do that, and trying to be a good colleague to them and saying this is valuable for both of us, that's a.

Ruth Winden [: 00:11:38

Really good way to do it, isn't it? Because it helps both of you. And maybe that makes it a little bit easier to take the idea of asking for recommendations on board. Thank you so much for that, Nic. Brilliant. Finally, Warren Beardall comes back from episode five. Like Marianne Talbert, Warren is also an experienced professional who has come to academia later in his career. Warren goes into quite some depth about LinkedIn as an engagement tool. He urges us all to stop and reflect on what do you want to get out of LinkedIn? What is your why, how, and with whom, and what for? Do you want to get active on LinkedIn? What type of conversations do you want to contribute or even start? We go into quite some depth here, and I hope you find Warren's thinking as enlightening as I did. Warren Beardall is here with me today, and Warren is so active on LinkedIn, I observe what he does and how he does it, and he's given me permission to talk to him about this and share this on the podcast. So. Hello, Warren.

Warren Beardalll [: 00:12:40

Hi, Ruth. Good to good to be here. Thanks for the invite.

Ruth Winden [: 00:12:42

Yeah. So I see you're really active on LinkedIn and you accomplished something that not many researchers seem to do naturally, and that is engage on LinkedIn. How do you do it and what does it give you back?

Warren Beardalll [: 00:12:57

Okay, well, LinkedIn for me is perhaps a vehicle of engagement in a different way to perhaps other people address it. I'm less inclined to lead a conversation I do post. There are things that I start in terms of a conversation, but most of what I'm doing is actually getting involved in other conversations and conversations that are interesting to me. And so my contribution, if that's what comes through, is just part of that engagement. I'm getting involved in a conversation that's perhaps what I'm doing differently to some people. I mean, I don't think I'm alone. I think there are other people doing that, but there are also a lot of people who are promoting as opposed to contributing. And for me, that's perhaps why some of my comments and some of the relationships I'm building on LinkedIn may look a little different to other people.

Ruth Winden [: 00:13:58

What's so obvious to me is, Warren, is that you contribute, you move the conversation further, you share your expertise because you're interested in your audience and building that community and having those conversations. And as you say, those who use LinkedIn purely as a self promotional tool, we know that doesn't work because it puts a lot of us off, because it's just scenes are so self, grandiosing behavior. And what you do so well is you think, okay, who's my audience? What are the type of conversations do I want to be part of? And that's so good to see because that's how I think you make a big impact on LinkedIn because people see it and they start to see you and respect you for your expertise and they look out for you and that's how you build trust. And so I think you do that so well. And I know when you do the things well, you think, doesn't everyone do this? And I can tell you no. And I just thought it was great to get your perspective on it because I know that many researchers I work with on LinkedIn say it's really intimidating for them. They're scared of going public. What's your view on that?

Warren Beardalll [: 00:15:05

Well, yeah, I mean, it is right to be a little bit scared of that, I think. I don't think people should be removing themselves from that emotion, from that fear, because I think it's healthy. If you are engaging in a conversation as opposed to trying to create a conversation, you are exposing yourself to opinions other than your own. And I think having having that respect for the possibility of it going wrong is actually a good thing. And if you do follow some of my comments and some of the strings of conversations I get involved in, you'll probably also notice that that doesn't always go quite as intended. And there are moments when I've probably said the wrong thing or I've said it in the wrong way or I've frankly just engaged with the wrong people. There is a reason to be slightly fearful. I mean, for me, it's almost like being in the playground and going up to a set of people who are maybe a bit of a clique and being the outsider and trying to have a conversation with them that isn't always going to go well, but by doing it. The other thing is everybody takes this very personally and everyone actually thinks this is quite if I make a fool of myself, everybody's going to remember that forever. Well, they're really not. I mean, most people don't even remember the conversation. Who were they having the conversation with two days ago? As long as you're not being provocative, controversial, just to be controversial, if you're actually genuinely interested in moving a conversation forward and learning as opposed to dictating the old what's the expression? Mansplaining when you're telling people, well, no, this is what you need to this is what you haven't thought of. Well, no, offer a thought and then expect a thought back that may actually be better than your own. So if you are living slightly fearful, I would say good. The bravery, the courage is to then actually sort of do it anyway and to use it as a learning experience. Just like I suspect most people listen to this in a research forum and a research capacity. This is the same in your research, you are getting involved in conversations. If you're making impact in your research, it's because you're contributing to the advancement of knowledge. For me, LinkedIn is just an extension of that same premise, which is why I'm absolutely why I'm keen to get involved in other people's conversations rather than necessarily generate them. And actually, if you're listening to this as a LinkedIn wannabe, if you want to get more involved in the conversation but you're a bit fearful and a bit reticent to do so, my advice would be to sort of just get involved in the conversations. It's so much easier to sort of just dip your toe in with a few comments, get a few comments back, maybe get an exchange going and then if you don't like it, you can just walk away, move on to the next conversation. And if you're fearful of starting those conversations, don't start the conversations, just get involved in other people's conversations. It's actually an easier experience, it's a safer experience, but eventually you'll start to find your own groove. You'll probably discover yourself in ways that are probably quite useful in terms of that social engagement and maybe you can then start leading a few conversations. But most people, I think, make the mistake of going on to LinkedIn and worrying that they have to say something world changing and making a post that is remembered forever and being fearful that they're going to make a post that's remembered forever for the wrong reasons. They're setting the bar really high and they're also setting the possibility of failure very high. If you're just getting involved in other people's conversations and finding those people who are having those conversations that you want to get involved in, congratulations, you're now networking, which is ultimately, I think, particularly as academics, I think that's what LinkedIn is for. It's an extension of a dialogue. It's an extension of dialogue and it's also a means to escape the dialogue that you don't want to be getting involved in. So don't lead the conversation, just contribute to it. Don't grow an audience, be the audience is actually sort of a way to maybe reframe that. And LinkedIn, I think, misses a trick in not encouraging people to be more that way inclined.

Ruth Winden [: 00:19:54

What I've learned, I've done some media training and I was reassured we are good at censoring ourselves, number one. And we know LinkedIn is different from other platforms where we might be a little bit more flippant or less thoughtful. But on LinkedIn we're in professional mode and we think about what we contribute, so we can always check before we press the send button. We can check. Is this really what I want to say? The other point for me is make it easy for yourself and start with people you know and who are friendly. There might be colleagues. You don't go for the person with the biggest audience and most engagement and more people. Seniors start with the people you're comfortable with. Start with your peers, start with your colleagues and get a feel for it. And then the last thing for me is also, as you say, the great thing is you can actually sit there and see what you are writing and then you can edit it or you can pose it and then edit it. It's not like you're in the moment and you might regret what you say because you have that opportunity. And I say that because I know some researchers say, look, I'm an introvert, Ruth, it scares me. And I say, well, introverts have a real advantage on social media because you're not like me. Like an extrovert is sometimes posting, Oops, you think this through, you plan what you write, you read it before you send it, you can compose something and always start small and build it from there. And it's that confidence building. And I didn't do it any other way. I didn't go out there full throttle and putting myself out there to the gurus in my field. No, I started with colleagues and had those lovely conversations and I still have them. And it's a real joy because I can also have conversations with people who are all over the world. And that's the beauty of it. Is it? Warren.

Warren Beardalll [: 00:21:45

Yeah, I completely agree. And my contact list, my followship, my followers, people I follow, it's not a significant number. And actually of that number, I would actually suggest, I mean, just to just to push you on that a bit, actually, in terms of sort of starting with people, you know, I actually find that very few people that I know well are active on LinkedIn. For me, a lot of the relationships that I'm building on LinkedIn are with people that I've never met before, but I'm building relationships with them anyway and actually sort of I'm observing now because I'm probably more receptive to understanding this. And I perhaps was a couple of years ago. I think I've always got maybe 20, 30 people that I'm following and contributing to conversations alongside who because LinkedIn sort of feeds on your feed, if you like, and your responsiveness. I always find I've sort of got 20, 30 people that are contributing to the same conversations I'm getting involved in. And so then the next time I'm involved in a conversation that they're involved in, that was completely different to the one I was involved in last time. And sometimes those are things that I'm just not interested in. So eventually I may actually start unfollowing someone just so that they drop off my feed for a while because it's just taken me down roads that I'm not that bothered about, but then maybe I'll bring them back in later. Alternatively, there are people I really want to see more of and I don't see them because LinkedIn has decided that my feed is better appropriated somewhere else. But I will actually go and find their profile and make a comment on a post that they've made recently or possibly even in message them if we're connected. And that will then mean that my feed is starting to bring their conversations back to the fore. In both of those contexts it's a conversation that is being had not necessarily by people, with people I know, but within a couple of weeks I start to know these people because we're starting to contribute to the same conversations.

Ruth Winden [: 00:23:44

And good point. It's the diversity of your network. You are pretty sophisticated on LinkedIn. You are going diverse. I'm going wide out because I believe in diverse networks. The point about start with the people you feel comfortable with is simply when you start out, I think the threshold is lower if you start commenting with your peers, your colleagues, people you work with anyway, or who are maybe in the same professional association or wherever you know them from. And it builds that confidence and you see, okay, I can do this. And then you take it to the next step because I think the danger is it becomes like an eco chamber. Doesn't it constantly stay in the same at the same time? I take your point. We all can't connect and be connected and in conversation with hundreds of thousands of people, it's impossible. And it's always this number. For some people they have 50 people they trust on LinkedIn, others have 30,000. That is the LinkedIn limit. I do not want to have connections of that size on LinkedIn because it would be a full time job.

Warren Beardalll [: 00:24:54

I agree. I think that comes to the nub of a question that people probably should be asking in their broader research context as well as their LinkedIn presence is why are you there? What are you wanting to get out of that? Or what are you wanting to put into that? And it's by understanding that that I think you can start to have more meaningful engagement on a platform like LinkedIn because it is doing something. And the answer, by the way, should never be I want to raise my profile so I can be an influencer, which is what a lot of people, I think on LinkedIn are really doing. I still don't understand the business model. And if somebody is listening to this and understands the LinkedIn business model when you're trying to be an influence on something like LinkedIn because there's no advertising, is there? I mean, it's not like you're suddenly sort of accumulating revenue space in the way that you would on something like YouTube. But there are lots of people out there who seem to sort of just be wanting to grow a following and it doesn't really matter who's following them. It's like as long as people are following them, as long as there's a number involved, then job done. And there's a few academics that have found themselves in this space and I'm looking and going, how have you got time to actually be properly engaging in other people's conversations, let alone the conversation that you're leading if you're accumulating such a massive fall of followers.

Ruth Winden [: 00:26:17

It's not about vanity, is it? It's about adding to a conversation, finding collaborators, showcasing yes, showcasing your research. Because at the end, we want to have impact. So I totally understand that. And for me, that is not being, oh, I'm the best, look at me, how wonderful I am. It's of service to your community. Can I ask you one last thing, Warren? And it's so interesting we could have a whole episode with you.

Warren Beardalll [: 00:26:43

I want to just push back on that before you do, though. So the notion that you're on LinkedIn to promote your research, is that actually why the people listening to this are going on to LinkedIn? And maybe the answer is yes, which is fine, but how many people are actually interested in your research in the context of how you're framing your research? And so my challenge to that or my alternative perspective on that is, can you get insights from your research into existing conversations that are going on anyway? And if the answer to that is yes, then maybe your research is starting to be shown in the context in which it actually has some impact. So maybe not going on to LinkedIn to promote your research, but maybe going on to LinkedIn to evolve your research in conversations that are going on in a social space. And if you can find that combination, then maybe LinkedIn is actually teaching you something about yourself and your research, as opposed to you going on to LinkedIn to try and teach other people what your research teaches them. For me, perspective is that's why the reason why on LinkedIn, I think, becomes such a pregnant and pertinent first question to be asking when you're, from an academic perspective, trying to grow point, Warren.

Ruth Winden [: 00:28:06

And when I said promotion, it's probably the wrong word I use because for me, it's about who is my audience and how can I serve that audience? So when I put career related posts onto LinkedIn, I'm not doing it because, oh, I want the world to see how wonderful Ruth Winden is. It's about what is of use to my community, which is the researchers at Leeds and beyond, what is helpful to them? How can I help them manage their careers better? So it's not about me, it's always about them. And I think that's the most effective way, because I think the number one criticism of LinkedIn is that it's getting more and more and more about self promotion and it's totally and utterly off putting. The last thing I wanted to ask you, Warren, and then I'll let you go back to your research, is what do you say to people who say, well, LinkedIn isn't really for me because there are no academics on there? Because I get that a lot as an objection.

Warren Beardalll [: 00:29:04

Okay. Well, maybe you're right. Maybe LinkedIn isn't right for you. If all you're going on to LinkedIn for is to engage in conversation with other academics, well, that's what your academic journals and your research is actually sort of already promoting. But how many academics are actually only engaged in academic research that is relevant to other academics? And how many people out there are academics who are doing research that has some impact in the wider world? If the answer is the latter, if research is being done so that there is a better interface between academic rigor and real world challenge, then maybe that's a better positioning for your goal framing of why you're on LinkedIn. Yes, there definitely should be more academics who are active on LinkedIn. But in the same way, I think there are many leaders, organizational leaders, business leaders, charity leaders, politicians, a lot of people in positions of authority who shy away from LinkedIn because they don't want to have those conversations, they don't want to be involved in that interface. And this comes back, I think, to this fear point that a CEO who is too vocal about things and ultimately gets found wanting is actually quite exposed and maybe seeing that as a career threat. But as an academic who is trying to advocate a conversation or is trying to get involved in a conversation, why are you just looking for other academics? Why aren't you actually looking for people who represent the research subject area, object area, the verb, the process that you're getting involved in? So just reframe your own question, I think. Not you, Ruth, I mean, as the listener, reframe your own question as to why are you going on to LinkedIn, that'll be my response to that. You can probably make it more succinct.

Ruth Winden [: 00:31:13

Thank you so much, Warren. Wonderful input from you. And, yeah, let's continue our conversations on LinkedIn. Take care. Bye bye.

Warren Beardalll [: 00:31:22

See you. See you on there. Thank you.

Ruth Winden [: 00:31:24

And finally, I want to thank you for sticking with me through my very first podcast season. Or maybe you've dipped in and out and picked what resonated with you. Or maybe this is your very first episode that you're listening to. Whatever brought you here, I appreciate you. And if you like what you heard, I have some good news. I will be back. I'll have plenty of ideas, new topics and new guests and maybe even some follow up episodes as my guests develop their careers. The next season will be led by my colleague Jet Hall, who will be looking at research impact. I know Jet has invited some fabulous guests to explore research impact from many angles. He also has, and I hope you won't mind me saying this, a beautiful podcast voice. So enjoy his voice and of course, the great content coming your way. And I'll be back with more episodes about careers before you know it. If you have any comments, thoughts or challenges for me, in the meantime, just get in touch. Stay well.

Introduction [: 00:32:25

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